I came across this copy of a blog post from a radfem site. Now to be clear, I am not an MRA. I do possess a Y chromosome and have never been oppressed (so how could I possibly EVER understand?), but this kind of talk just bugs me, in a non-patriarchal way of course.
Freedom and privilege for women I say yea, conspiring to off the male half of the human species and looking on us like we are subhumans, I say nay.
I get it, they've been oppressed since the dawn of time. And yes their anger is a righteous one. But for all their claims of superiority and puppies and kittens, women must realize that taking the same road that men previously took doesn't give them the moral high ground, in fact last I checked, talking wholesale gendercide doesn't make you a good human being.
So to reiterate, not MRA (not insecure about my loss of privilege), although I tended to get alittle punchy with the commentary the longer this went on. I can only tolerate so much stupidity.
The entire thread is here:
http://pastebin.com/nwxBe2Ek
My response to the snippets in italics. Aaaand Gooo!
I think it’s important to begin a post like this by providing some context. You can’t just ask, “Are men aware of their condition?” and then simply proceed to discuss said condition, especially when men are reading. You need to offer some background so that people know where you’re coming from; so the post can’t be distorted; so nobody can play ignorant.
How about a list of atrocities then? Goes on to list rhetorical atrocities
So I’m going to go ahead here and concede, yes, those were men. I’m not going to make the argument that women get involved in these activities as well because statistical evidence says for the most part this is a male issue. We do live in a patriarchy after all. But here is where I take some issue, how did the patriarchy get established? As natives said to the white man after gazing upon his cities “Where are your women?” And to be clear they didn’t mean “your” as ownership or dominance but as in equals in the decision making process of how a society should operate. We are now all, ALL, trapped in this cultural meme. As a man I am just as helpless as a woman to change the direction. By myself anyway. I can’t do it alone, so who among the rad feminists are going to stand with me as I would stand with them? Sorry if my having a penis gets in the way of that.
For those readers who may not know, men systematically massacred over nine million women over the course of many centuries, and then pretended it didn’t happen. So clearly, we’re not talking about institutionalized misogyny here. This is not “sexism“, or “woman-hating”. What men have done, and continue to do to women is, I believe, the inevitable result of some pathology in their genetic make-up. The violence they commit is inevitable. They were born that way, and were born to do it. This we must accept.
I’ve never killed a woman. Nor have I abused a woman. Nor to the best of my knowledge has any of my male friends (for if they did they would be my friend no longer). I don’t see the inevitability of this. What I see is that environment coupled with circumstance leads some down what you see is an inevitable path, but obviously does not apply to all persons of a specific gender.
The Y chromosome is inferior to the X. It contains 78 working genes, compared to approximately 1,500 working genes on the X chromosome. As the Y passes from father to son, mutations accumulate slowly over the generations. Scientists are researching the decline of the Y with great frenzy at the moment.
What this means is that with each generation, males are becoming genetically more inferior to females.
That is quite the claim, that females are genetically superior on the basis of having more genes. I guess that would make the tomato superior to females? And rice, and worms...I could go on.
“Once upon a time, the Y sex chromosome looked much the same as the X sex chromosome. Both were X shaped, and matched up neatly. Like our other pairs of chromosomes, the two sex chromosomes exchanged genes as necessary to repair DNA and avoid harmful mutations.
Then something went badly wrong. Around 166 million years ago, a huge chunk of the Y chromosome in one of our mammalian ancestors was turned upside down and reinserted. The change was so extreme that the Y chromosome no longer matched the X, and it became impossible for the two to swap genes. The Y chromosome began collecting mutations and losing genes, ultimately taking on its characteristic Y shape as a result.
“In humans, it now carries a mere 19 of the 800 genes it originally shared with the X. Given that rate of loss, some geneticists have predicted that the chromosome will lose its final gene in 4.6 million years.” (New Scientist)
Men are loathe to admit it. Despite the evidence staring them in the face, they are apparently in denial.
Not really, if it happens it happens, it doesn’t make me any less of a person that in 4.6 million years “men”, as I understand them, will not exist. Who is to say another event like the one that happened 166 million years ago won’t happen again? I think making an argument based on genetics opens a can of (genetically superior) worms, i.e. if the Y chromosome is a mutation that should be eliminated what about other types of known and commonly understood genetic damage, like trisomy 21? Are you willing to go down that road? That is not a path I wish to travel.
So here is a question: if the sex-determinate gene on the Y chromosome jumps to an X and human males are left with a full complement of XX chromosomes, what would then be your excuse?
Female longevity is not an accident. The Y chromosome is faulty, whereas the X is full of life-preserving properties. Take color blindness . This genetic fault manifests only in males, because females have their second X as a back up (kind of like having a second kidney in case one fails). Almost all intersex babies are male but doctors pretend they’re female. The only intersex people who are female are those with Turner syndrome. Wiki says “Turner syndrome only affects females” but this is not exactly true. Turner syndrome babies are born without an X. Males who would have been born with Turner syndrome are probably miscarried early on. They die because there are no genes in the Y to preserve life. Whereas if a foetus is female, they have their second X as a back up, and are therefore born alive. So it is not a “female” condition per se. What actually happens is that only females survive.
I would concede that males by nature are the more disposable gender, but let’s be realistic about the longevity, men take more risks, we are harder on our bodies then women. We can’t bear children, our biological investment in the act of procreation is minimal. We are built to be active and more aggressive. A good society would design ways to channel these biological imperatives, but what a patriarchy does is hands the keys of the kingdom to the more impulsive of the genders.
Before you read it, let’s put the idea of “thoughtcrime” into context. Men are right now torturing women, and are proud of it...By contrast, what you are about to read is words. Nothing but words. Do not allow patriarchal propaganda convince you that words on a page, and torture, are one and the same.
Surely let us not equate words to actions, but since when is the disapproval of the act of contemplating genocide “patriarchal propaganda”?
I would like to express how the knowledge of men being innately violent + a mutation has affected me in my everyday life. I knew that male violence was related to male biology for a year 1/2 maybe? (in that only men could be violent in that way and create a patriarchy) but when I read Sonia Johnson’s book where she explained how men were a mutation, this changed my sentiment to men. At first I was really happy to find this out because it made complete sense, in many ways (too long to explain though). It comforted me in ignoring men and acting as if only women existed, and focusing on creating safe women-only spaces. But something I never felt before, I started to feel sorrow for their state. It annoys me because I have never felt sorry for men before, only contempt, or ignorance at best. I look at them and I imagine what it would be like, knowing somewhere, deep down, that you are flawed, a mistake, and that your are dead, or not fully human, or inherently destructive, and if I knew that, I would probably kill myself. To imagine feeling this made me feel sorry. Do they know it? Or do they not fully understand it? All these efforts in making women believe we are aliens, non-human, naturally and internally flawed, walking defects => this is them projecting on us. They must know on some level they are flawed, but do they experience emotional pain from it? Do they feel emotions at all, or do they just pretend to? To which extent? Are they aware of their condition somehow?
The thing is, if I treat them as mutants, what’s stopping us from killing them? Empathy? Fear? Fear of hurting ourselves, or that it will destroy our soul to do so, because being violent to someone means cutting yourself from emotions, therefore being more dead inside? Would it be bad to kill them all? To what degree does violence affect them or not? Can they only be affected by violence, and nothing else? Do they only understand violence? How does this affect our actions and decisions to take power away from them?
Why don’t you just ask a man? I suppose I don’t need to point out the parallels of what this poster is saying and what white culture said of the indigenous people’s they encountered. We all know where this reasoning leads...to genocide. I get the sense that some of the female posters on here have had bad experiences with the men in their lives. I sympathize. However to deal with your issues with certain individuals by projecting your solutions to encompass an entire gender, how does this make you any different than the men who used to (or still do) dominate you? By saying that the problem is men, and the defect is rooted in their genetic make-up essentially relieves not only the woman of how to work effectively with men to change society (by offering up a can’t-fix-em-then-kill-them-all scenario) but it also relieves the men, specifically your oppressors, of any need to change themselves, after all what can they do, it’s genetic. This is self-defeating. Even if you banded together and seized the moment to wipe out all men, at what cost to yourselves? Where goes your moral highground? How do you, after making that decision, differentiate yourselves from the flawed men you loathe?
Also, I just realised yesterday that no man is part of me, and that litterally, I don’t have a dad, no woman has! I just understood the meaning of having the genes from my mother and my paternal grandmother. Only women are my people. Men do not exist within me and I have no father. My father is not my father but he is no-one. This may sound odd but it just struck me. And at the same time, it made me feel sorry for him. And the story Sonia tells in her book sisterwitch really resonated in me, when she explains that women felt sorry for those feeble beings and tried to feed them. Obviously I would never do that but it’s just strange to feel this. This is not a political statement, just to share the effect the knowledge has on me and I’m still processing the conclusions to be made from it in everyday life interactions with men. Perhaps it’s trauma bonding. Or over developed empathy towards dominants. How has this knowledge changed your sentiments towards men, or way of interacting with them, if at all? Other than female separatism, are there some conclusions you have made in your lives based on this knowledge?
This is just dumb. Biologically speaking we are the same species. I don’t have to point out that in the act of procreation that you inherited an X from your father who inherited it from his mother. That X is instrumental in forming who he is and in turn forming who you are. So in essence you acknowledge a everyman is part woman, but all badness and icky, so either the X is not as mighty as you think it is or there is more to the story.
What you were saying about no woman having a dad, I’ve been going there with my own thoughts recently as well, stemming from my experiences with my own father, and the way that my husband is with my children. They’re not his kids. They don’t have a father. He might regard them as a appendages: get a wife, get a house, get some kids, and in that sense they’re his and belong to him, but other than that, he’s just an alien in the home. He helps out a lot with the kids, which I used to appreciate, but now I realise it’s another form of dominance, of trying to take over in the home and piss all over the place, leaving his mark. I’ve also realised that my 6 year old daughter humours him. How much mental energy is this taking out of her?? She certainly does not humour me, LOL! It’s no holds barred when it comes to telling me exactly what she thinks of me at any particular given moment.
This strikes me as certainly ungrateful and a certain measure of damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don’t. He helps out, you call it dominance and resent him for it. If he didn’t help out you would accuse him of neglecting his duties and accuse him of another form of dominance. Can’t win. Perhaps maybe if he ceased to breathe that would work for you? Too bad you didn’t figure this out before you got married, you could have saved both yourself and your soon to be ex-husband much grief. LOL, indeed.
To answer your question about whether men experience emotional pain. I have a lot of brothers, have had various relationships with men and I’ve concluded that when they’re children they feel pain and are as close to female (i.e human) they’re ever going to be. But once they hit puberty they no longer feel emotions. They know that women do and “other” us for it. My husband was putting on one big fat act while we were “courting” before marriage. This has blown me away. If I wasn’t in such a vulnerable situation (in a foreign country with kids) he would have had to carry on with the act throughout our relationship, as almost all men do. But because he didn’t have to bother he practically dropped the act as soon as the ring was on my finger.
Has it ever occurred to you this is a reflection of culture? That boys are not allowed to cry or show emotion. From an early age we are told to “man up”, “grow a pair”, “quite being a wimp” and that “crying is for sissies”. There is no real place in our culture for the sensitive man. Even women will go out of their way to poke fun at the stereotype.
Yes it’s interesting that you talk about your brothers because the other day I made the same comment to myself, as I was at my grandmother’s house looking at my family photos and when they were 3, 4 years old they actually looked human, had human expressions, you can see it in their eyes. But now, They’re lost, they lost capacity to emphathise. Puberty *is* the turning point.
The mystical turning point where boys turn into monsters (men)? Again I point to culture. We are not given the tools to deal with our emotions, it makes us fragile emotionally. Nor are we indulged to express our emotions unless it conforms with the ideal male stereotype, brooding, anger, rage, hate, stoicism.
If we are not taught and encouraged how to appropriately express ourselves are we to be suprised when we express ourselves in wholey inappropriate ways? Whose fault is that? Certainly not something you can blame on a chromosome. In that kind of cultural milieu, how would you expect men to behave?
However, I do very much believe that men experience one particular emotion very strongly— self-pity. I concur with the author of the following (taken from no pomo tumblr, author uknown)
“Oh, they have toes, but the only feeling men have I’ve witnessed is self-pity. They have a lot of instincts like territoriality, protect your turf or woman, whatever they think they own– but I don’t call ball ingredients like testosterone, feelings or emotions. So isn’t it curious that you can’t even get most lesbians to say they’re man-haters? Instead they say, “Oh I don’t really hate men, now that I’m a lesbian, I never have to be around any. They just don’t affect my life anymore.’ This is what I call the lesbian false consciousness. When don’t we have to be around men? Don’t we ever walk the streets, buy groceries, deal with some patriarchal bureaurcracy, ride subways, trains or drive cars, see police, repairmen, don’t men live in our buildings in the cities or live around you in the country? If you work, aren’t there men around supervising you? If you’re in school, don’t you have any men teachers or have to sit with men in class? If you go to a hospital, aren’t there any men doctors or patients around? The lesbian answer is, “Oh, those; well I never pay any attention to them.” Take a good look next time you’re in what they call public which means man’s world; look at those men you don’t know and dig on how much attention your body and mind pay to trying avoid paying any attention to pigs, who are paying a lot of attention to you making sounds to scare you, stepping in your way or not moving so you have to walk around them or yield to their right of way…. Even the most down and out bum in New York has a whole repertoire of intimidation numbers to pull on women. No matter how far down you go in the prick hierarchy, every prick knows how to corner a woman, make her feel unsafe. And they all do it every day, even your good daddies and your shy brothers who never told you what they do to the women they don’t know.”
Ah yes the expert testimony of the unknown author. Let’s design society around those musings.
Again I would point out the parallels of this dehumanization to several other famous dehumanizations in history. So when this poster says “prick hierarchy” this is an all encompassing label that all men, everyday go out of their way to make women feel unsafe. Anyone can see that this is a absolute statement that has no bearing on reality. Reminds me of an issue my daughter has with dogs. She is terrified of them (from a intimidating encounter with a dog she encountered when she was a toddler), she opens the door when she sees her neighbour come home, unbeknownst to her the neighbour has a big dog with her. The dog gets startled when the door opens and barks, my daughter gets scared and runs back inside. The neighbour feels bad and knocks on the door and tries to tell my daughter that the dog is a nice dog and was just startled is all and would she like to try again. My daughter explains the origin of her fear and the neighbour replies that there are indeed some bad dogs out there, but most dogs are good and can be good given the chance. I thought that was a fitting metaphor to this discussion. There are some bad men out there, but most men are good or can be good if given the right environment and upbringing. The logic that is being put forward in these posts are men=bad, even if they act good they are probably hiding badness, thus because of the few encounters you’ve had with men that are bad, it is best to proceed with caution and treat all men the same way you’d treat bad men. The terminating clause of this logic being just that, terminating an entire gender.
And while we’re on the subject of men’s primary emotion being self-pity, and not much else, I’d like to quote a woman from a forum called SAAFE, which is where prostituted women gather to support each other and share techniques on how best to survive. I find it interesting to read their comments because these women know men better than any other group of women on earth.
This is interesting the poster drawing from the experience of a prostitute who has experienced nothing of men but those that view her as an object or a commodity comes to the conclusion that all men, by and large, experience no other emotion that self-pity. I would point out that the men who generally frequent the services of prostitutes are not men who could sustain a relationship of any substance, hint: these men are not good people. I would suggest expanding your sample size to include men that didn’t frequent prostitutes? Just a suggestion.
And if anyone knows about how men tick, it’s prostituted women. They need to, or they wouldn’t survive.
Yes prostituted women understand ALL men, even those multitudes that would never entertain the thought of engaging in paid-for intercourse /sarc. I would say that prostitutes are experts in narcissists, sociopaths, and the dregs of society. Which makes them experts on bad men, not all men.
And BAM, there you have it. A prostituted woman reaches exactly the same conclusion as a lesbian separatist. That tells us something.
That people that are low on the rungs of society can be not so savoury?
To conclude, I believe men do have an inkling of their condition. The world they have created is a living manifestation of this knowledge.Nature is on the side of females. We’re nature’s best, which is probably another reason why men hate us so much, and patriarchy promulgates lies about it, and constantly reverses the truth. The most absurd concept of all is the idea that there is a male God in the sky, who is the source of all life, who created Adam in his own image as the original prototype, with Eve as an add-on. Nature knows this is a reversal. It is males who are the add-ons to the species. They protest too much. They know, they know, they know.
Wow. Arrogance in line with anthropocentrism. Femopocentrism? It is repugnant to hear a man say “Men are superior to women”, it is equally repugnant to hear the other side of that statement.
WordWoman says:
Fascinating perspective, CBL! Really fascinating! I just got the Sonia Johnson books and am eager to read them. Thanks for your discussion of them.
Along with the destructon of the environment there has been a decrease in sperm count in males.The sperm is likely to die off in response to environmental degradation long before the Y goes. Either way, men appear to be in decline.
How likely is that to happen before irreversible destruction to the planet?
How do women expect to continue to procreate with a sudden degradation of sperm or men? Could it be that you propose to do the same thing that you are accusing geneticist of in that they are trying to find a way to preserve the Y, you will use science to try to find a way to clone yourselves?
cherryblossomlife says:
Yes, I think I read somewhere that pesticides or plastics or something are hurrying the mutation process along. It’s come a full circle. They’ve destroyed the planet and now nature is getting its own back.
Hello, you were along for the ride as I recall. Great way to abdicate your responsibility for the planet by putting all the blame squarely on male shoulders. What are you doing to put a stop to this? Are you protesting corporations? Do you speak about the invisibility of top-down hierarchical violence that is not couched in terms of the male gender perpetuated on the female gender? I guarantee that if women gathered together in great numbers pushing their babies along in prams to protest corporation like goldman sachs and Monsanto, the world would take notice. And if the state was stupid enough to pepper spray babies and mothers then they would overnight have to deal with a legion of very pissed-off fathers, husbands, and brothers. But would you rather play the passive victim, hiding out in your forums, conspiring as to how to bring down the male menance. You want the patriarchy gone, then learn to work with those that would help you accomplish that.
witchwind says:
Excellent! You’re right, if they didn’t know, they wouldn’t be so violently trying hard to “be on top” and to brainwash us into believing the contrary.
thinking of what I said, the problem of taking violence in our own hands is that again, it focuses our energy on men in negative ways, it generates negativity in us – I suspect it would, but I can’t be certain. How do women who killed their batterers feel about it? Was it completely liberating or did it reinforce patterns of violence in themselves, creating addictive cycles of violence?
At least it seems to go against positive building and focusing on ourselves and on creating our own reality, rather than being outward centred and doing according to men’s presence. Would it locate, yet again, power outside of ourselves? Valerie Solanas said that all men should do us and themselves a favour, to kill themselves now. That it would be the best service they could give to the world, free the world from their presence. Obviously this seems the easiest option, but I don’t think it’s likely to happen. They are very intent on continuing to pollute us and the world with their presence.
If we applied the logic of Sonia Johnson, where there is no past nor future, all we would need to do is feel and act as if men already *were* dead, inexistant and extinct, something of a distant memory. I wonder what effect this would have!
Why don’t you read some history and consider how dimly the notion of genocide is looked upon. It is, by all definitions, the worst crime that can be perpetuated by our species. Think that won’t leave a black mark? Think again.
FCM says:
i first considered the defective Y chromosome when i read it in dalys work, and then again in sonia johnsons sisterwitch conspiracy. it was almost incomprehensible to me, and in fact if i hadnt seen daly address it, i never wouldve accepted it from the less-credentialled johnson and this is intentional isnt it? how many ph.ds does a woman have to have, so that citing known facts is accepted and acceptable? ffs, men can look you right in the eye and tell you up is down and it takes a very confident woman to recognize within the privacy of her own mind that hes wrong, let alone say it out loud. we just shut down from the oppressiveness of the constant mindfucking reversals. thats what we have coming FROM THEM, and yet *we* are not allowed to SPEAK about the truth, or ask legitimate questions about mens worth at all. and thats what it comes down to isnt it? MENS WORTH. and how they dont really have any — they really are so much genetic garbage. they feel sorry for themselves and we feel sorry for them — this is the sum and substance of our relationship. it is unilateral pity towards the pathetic, defective male.
saying it out loud feels good and right. :)
So says Hitler. I am coming to understand why the term “feminazi” exists. I wonder how you expect to have a rational conversation about this, how you expect to be “free” and respected if you think that the other side of this equation (who incidentally still holds most of the privilege you wish to have or at least have denied to men) is not even human, worthy of basic decency. I’ve met some pretty awful people in my time, a good chunk of them men, but this is up there.
cherryblossomlife says:
Ha! Yes, even prostitutes feel sorry for their clients. Everybody feels sorry for men, including men themselves.. And when you look at the science, you can see this pity is not misplaced. I’d feel sorry for myself if I was born male.
I don’t feel sorry for myself. I am quite comfortable in my own skin. I worry about my kids. I want to encourage a strong confident daughter who is not afraid to stand up for herself and a son who will respect women and stand by them when needed.
FCM says:
even the sheer physical redundancy of males is never addressed in the mainstream, even though that is obvious. we have only ever needed a few of them for reproductive purposes. their redundancy in terms of numbers, as well as the fact that they embody genetic garbage, and are at a critical mass of pure evil, is an unholy trifecta. these issues are generally not discussed even individually, and certainly not together (as in, 1+1+1=3 or 0+0+0=0 for that matter — haha) and we DEFINTELY arent allowed to even THINK about a possible solution for what is a very obvious and urgent problem.
And what is your FINAL solution? Sheesh!
FCM says:
god i wish fathers didnt exist at all. i cannot wait til some of you read sisterwitch. :)
I wish thoughts like this didn’t exist, but we don’t always get what we wish for.
DavinaSquirrel says:
I did a ‘default human is female’ post over a year ago, with pictures, so you can see the really pathetic Y. It’s another of patriarchy’s great reversals – that males insist they are the default human, when the reality is that females are the default human.
I’m not sure where you’d come up with that “males insist they are the default human”. Biology is pretty clear, we all start out looking like females, sexual differentiation not occurring till later in the pregnancy. However, for any one gender to insist that they are the default gender seems pretty silly on the face of it. What if we all defaulted to one gender or the other? We’d end pretty quickly as a species. Evolutionary biology has one gender bearing the children and the other contributing his genetic material. Don’t blame men for that arrangement, blame evolution.
cherryblossomlife says:
Thank you for that Weirdward! Especially the explanation of how post-modernism was feminism distorted. God, can’t they think of a SINGLE idea themselves?? Jesus Christ!
Do I even have to go there? No man ever had an idea that didn’t come from a woman? This is a peculiar brand of plagarism. Congrats, you just plagarised at least 50% of recorded human history.
karmarad says:
Thanks Cherry for your courage and insights!It is so difficult to try to think straight from within this masculinist global society.
When I consider the state of the land, sea, women, animals, and plants, and the constant and increasingly potent attacks on them, what I see is that a deformed masculine spirit has seized control of the earth and it has, freed of any controls, run rampant. By suppressing the female side of themselves and humanity as successfully as they have, the masculine spirit has – how to say this – become extreme, exaggerated, monstrous, lost any ability to abate the more destructive aspects of masculinity. I often speculate about what women would be like if we were raised in freedom.
I’d add to that the question of what the world would be like if men were raised in balance and with destructive instincts controlled by a non-masculinist society. In a way I’m talking about both an essentialist view of human males as having all this destructive potential readily available within them, coupled with a social-constructionist view that the global society they have built increasingly encourages them to go mad with it. The madness is, in this way of thinking, getting progressively more destructive in its manifestations because it is unchecked.
I’m currently reading Lierre Keith’s analysis, locating this loss of balance and suppression of the feminine and pathological exaggeration of the masculine in the rise of agriculture. Of course many other feminists have discussed this theory. The geneticist Adam Sykes ( in “Adam’s Curse”) starts from the notion that the Y chromosome at that point had the opportunity to obtain complete power over humanity’s course: “Driven on and on by the crazed ambition of the Y-chromosome to multiply without limit, wars began to enable men to annex adjacent lands and enslave their women. Nothing must stand in the way of the Y-chromosome. Wars, slavery, empires – all ultimately coalesce on that one mad pursuit…The mad scramble, fuelled by the most basic of unseen genetic impulses, seriously endangers the survival of the species – and the planet. In ten thousand years we have changed from an intelligent and resourceful animal…into a teeming species very rapidly destroying our beautiful planet.” I don’t agree with Sykes on many basic points, because he still writes with blinders, but I’ll take his moments of clarity gladly.
Anyway, destruction caused by male domination has obviously become runaway. Women have enough to do with the process of getting free of their enslavement. But we aren’t going to have time to do this in any kind of orderly fashion – men aren’t going to stop the runaway and we have to address this concurrently with recovering our power. I even ask myself if the women’s liberation movement is directed by our own XX genes, sensing the impending destruction and impelling us to take action at this precise time of escalating threats to the earth. In any case, if male domination causes massive destruction, I don’t really think our planet will be destroyed. She can weather men pocking her with holes, poisoning her atmosphere, ruining her ecologies, killing her water – and come back in a few million years. She’ll be okay, but it’s a damn shame that this is the most optimistic thing I can say about the future, that a complete wipeout won’t destroy her. Too bad only trilobytes will be left to start over, or whatever non-human species make it through.
This was probably the most coherent comment on the blog, suggesting that there is a balance issue between the feminine and masculine.
cherryblossomlife says:
Thanks Karmarad, fascinating comment, as always.
Probably didn’t understand the full ramifications of the comment which essentially says that feminine and masculine should be in balance, which doesn’t support treating men like animals and/or eliminating them. It calls for changing the environment in which men grow up to channel and temper those genetic predispositions.
FCM says:
women have been taking birth control pills for decades for example, when its perfectly “natural” for semen exposure to cause pregnancy. seems like altering biology (or “nature” if you will) is perfectly acceptable when its WOMENS biology thats being fucked with, and where the intent and effect is to support male power at womens expense.
If you can come up with something better than a condom for men, then fill your boots. No one is stopping you.
cherryblossomlife says:
Yes, I think so citizenaqueau. Nature is on women’s side, at least. Maybe that’s why men love cutting down rainforests and shit.
I would say that men and women love money, they love the nice things it buys them and they have been inculcated by an economic system that says that the nature of the goods of nature is “free”. So while I’ll concede that most of this economic garbage was thought up by men, as was the ideology of capitalism, and most of religion...where are the feminist thinkers on any of these subjects? Feminist economists? Feminist theologians? I recognize the fallacy of our our cultural institutions, but I don’t see much radical feminist analysis of these institutions. What would it amount to? Man=bad, woman=good. End of story.
cherryblossomlife says:
Honestly, go and google “BDSM porn” then come back here and say, “Well, some men are nice”. It doesn’t fly. And to be honest, it doesn’t MATTER, because those few nice men aren’t WORTH the millions and billions of women and children who have been hurt, tortured and killed by men since patriarchy began.
So I gotta ask, do all men look at BDSM porn? Poster seems to suggest that we do? Again we are ascribing the attributes of a subset of the male population to the entire male population.
cherryblossomlife says:
Remember the political system was INVENTED by men. WOmen had nothing to do with it. Yes, it’s a complex system, but patriarchy is a political system indeed, which employs all the same oppressive tactics as any other authoritarian regime (terrorizing and torturing the oppressed, using propaganda in the form of pornography, the stifling of women’s speech, discriminating in the job market etc etc). The question you have to ask is:
“WHY do men create authoritarian regimes?” “WHY do they violently oppress women (and in some cases men of other ethnic or racial groups)?” “Why do they kill and hurt women and children so frequently?”
Women haven’t a jot of political or economic power.
You forgot the economic system, religious system, cultural system. And you also forgot in the heat of your blaming that although it was invented by men it was(and is) SUPPORTED by women. You promptly erect the defence that “women haven’t a jot of political or economic power”. You forget that in an age when women are elected and appointed to the highest offices in state and corporate power that you are running potentially the most subversive and successful espionage strategy in the history of the universe; you are raising our children. You have the ability, under our noses and enmasse, to turn society on its ear. You are our children’s first consistent conctact with an adult, what you teach establishes our children’s intellectual and emotional foundation. So please, spare me the “poor me” routine.
cherryblossomlife says:
And exactly WHO is conditioning men to be violent? Don’t you think maybe pornography, computer games and the mass media (ALL invented by men) are a form of political control, a form of political propaganda, encouraging violence against women?
Poor parenting? You have no control over what goes on in your home? What media your children consume? Yeah, sounds like poor parenting. I live in this world, the world of the patriarchy, that I can’t control. I can, however, make sure my children know the difference between the world they are growing up in and the world that is possible.
FCM says:
NO men are against violence against women. none of them. it physically hurts me to read such wishful thinking about boys and men, and such lies about what men are capable of, and what they allegedly believe, AGAINST ALL EVIDENCE. stop hurting me! thanks!
Wow. Another absolute statement that does not reflect reality. Let me check, did I engage in any violence against women today...well I guess unless you count disagreeing with radfems as “violence” I would say no. But please educate me in the arcane ways that I am unwittingly promoting violence against women.
karmarad says:
Just want to stress something brought up by fcm…from the evidence to date, men, with fourteen times as much testosterone as women, tend strongly toward aggression, hierarchy, and dominance. Yes, making use of these instincts/predispositions, they have wrested control of human society. The result is urgent danger to our planet.
BUT there is no such thing as biological determinism.
A mature society can contain these instincts (I mean a society that does not valorize, hierarchy, domination, and aggression). They can be controlled and neutralized. There are many methods for containing male violence. Men themselves are inventing new methods for doing so as we speak. Many men are ashamed of their instincts and would like to have methods to control the destructiveness.
Hormonal adjustments are important to look into. I look at trans people taking hormones, women coerced into taking hormones, birth control pills, Lance Armstrong, Alex Rodriguez and all the other sports figures trying to hypermasculinize by using hormones. I look at the ongoing efforts to control sex predators using chemical or surgical castration, especially men who have castrated themselves because they know they are dangerous. I see how modern medicine is using hormones to treat breast and prostate cancer. Treating women for “menopausal” symptoms of course is just filling them up with hormones to keep them looking younger and more available.
One case haunts me. It was an Army doctor during and after the Civil War in the US. He became a rapist and was put into a mental institution. A very intelligent individual, he analyzed his situation and one day castrated himself. The relief he felt was enormous.
There are many twists and turns in history. There are many intelligent men as well as the huge number of women pointing out the obvious here. I look at Derrick Jensen (Deep Green Resistance), for instance, who wants to save the earth and is right on the edge of understanding that it is men who must be contained first and foremost.
I do think there is hope. Brute force is irrelevant to power today. Women are superb at the verbal swordplay of law and medicine and now have their entrees. I figure that all we have to do is continue to encourage birth control, literacy, access to the Net, and abortion if needed. Other feminists can help me here, explaining what exactly we need.
And one other thing. It is crucial to insist that we are agents. We are subjects, not objects, and won’t be treated as objects in the media, in philosophy, in politics, or in any other way, any more. To be human is to be a subject. Let’s call it out each time men try to pretend we aren’t subjects, agents, just like them. It’s a good place to start.
And good god, they’re still trying to prostitute us. They are still jacking off to pictures they have stolen from us. They think paying poor women (made poor by their system) a pittance somehow makes it right to perform virtual rape. They think their sex drives are the most important things going on. They feel entitled to degrade us. Let’s be honest, and I have talked to several men candidly about this: the necessity is to pretend we are not human. We’re like nice dogs to them in pornography and prostitution. Good doggie! (growl/attack/eat) Dogs like us are close to our wolf origins, remember! or even more close to human, let me say these words: shame, shame on you, you are disgusting to do this to other humans, and the women are human, and you are sickening.
We have always borne the responsibility, and never received the credit for it. Let’s face it. We are the stable, grounded, child-raising, feeding, life-affirming sex, and men with their loud voices, their boundary violating, their pecking orders, have fucked our society up royally. Even in my lifetime I have seen a revolution. Cultural change won’t take long considering that there are three and half billion of us who are tired of not being quite human. That we are not killers, exploders, destroyers, has held us back since these methods are common in male arsenals but not in ours. These days these methods are irrelevant. Men are irrelevant. actually. If they want to become relevant again, they will have to learn self-fucking-discipline.
Other than the second last paragraph karmarad once again hit the nail on the head. Patriarchy needs boundaries. I think radfems miss the point that the patriarchy makes demands on both genders, the feminine to be invisible and submissive and the masculine to be competitive and domineering. Any individual (regardless of gender) that does not play the role gets singled out and squashed. I do not want to say that there is a direct comparision between the roles we play, there is not, but I would point out that men would do better not being under a patriarchy. It is dog eat dog out here, and although you are not predisposed to bear any sympathy for the male gender, you could consider the collapse of the patriarchy a selling point. Men establish worth by who/what we conquer, over the thousands of years this has morphed into how much money do we make and how much influence do we have in social circles. Could it be that it would be a burden we’d readily give up if we could establish our worth simply by being who we are and not what we can offer?
cherryblossomlife says:
I was interested to notice that a man has liked this post, and his gravatar is interesting. It reads “SUpport Radical Feminism”. Now, any woman who supports radical feminism IS a radfem, whereas any man who understands radical feminism knows that, by default, he cannot be a radfem. Compare it to the Hugo Schwyzers of this world, self-proclaimed feminist men who believe they’re leading women to freedom… What an imbecile. So feminist men, egalitarian men, non-capitalist men, animal rights men, male ecologists and the like can fuck off… But if a man wants to “Support Radical Feminism”, then I feel very heartened by that… UNLESS he, and his ilk goes and does what men have always done, which is take over the movement and distort it.
I am emphatically not radfem, in fact most of you who identify themselves as radfem on this thread are repugnant in your understanding of the ideology. I think that giving women more power and education can alleviate problems like overpopulation, violence, environmental destruction, but the women in power have to reject the patriarchy and not supplant themselves just so they can hold on to a paycheque/position. They have to blaze their way to power on the platform on which they stand.
cherryblossomlife says:
Peaceful Antithesist, I think yours was the lengthiest comment I’ve ever had here on cherryblossomlife. Well DONE.
This was after a series of censored male comments edited by the admin to say “Hai, I’m an MRA!” and this comment should read:
Peaceful Antithesist, I think yours was the lengthiest comment I’ve ever had censored here on cherryblossomlife. Well DONE.
Women have been silenced, their opinions ignored for a long time. I get that. Women only spaces, that too I understand. You can have private forums in which the public cannot read unless they are logged in that way you can weed out the MRA’s. But to have a public post and willfully discriminate and purposefully demonstrate you are discriminating, why bother? It is like you give the oppressed a little power (in this case admin power) of the oppressor and watch them go wild with the new round of oppressing. Take that you dirty worthless men, I SILENCE YOU! HOW DO YOU LIKE THEM APPLES! Sheesh!
For the record, if any rad fems post a comment to this article I’m not going to act like a child and post “Hai, I’m a RadFem.” I will allow it, because as a privileged male, I can share my space without fear.
cherryblossomlife says:
Why do MRAs come here? We’re talking about how much men hate women. What are they trying to prove? Are they trying to convince us they DON’T hate women..? Coz if that’s the case their tactics are crap, and they’re not very convincing. In fact, all they’re doing is proving us right. And if we’re right, and they DO, in fact, hate women… then why are they complaining about this post at all?
Fucking oppressors.
Well to be fair, it is hard to convince anyone of anything if:
You don’t value their opinion.
You don’t regard them as human.
You don’t let them speak.
You are not open to listening.
But yeah MRA’s pretty much hate women. Empowerment of women, to them, represents a diminishment of their power/status/privilege. You see this pattern time and time again in other oppressor/oppressed type of relationships (i.e. poor whites looking down on negroes although they were both oppressed by rich whites). To be MRA is to have an insecurity problem, they’ve been handed a rotten bit of luck in life, and since it is not permissible to own slaves anymore the last bastion of discrimination left is gender. To feel better about themselves they demonize the perceived weaker group, in this case women. If they are not the absolute last on the totem pole then they can accept their lot in life.
In Conlusion:
If this post was some sort of satire where the women posting were treating men exactly the way men where treating women for thousands of years (i.e. that they are not people and their opinion is irrelevant) then it is brilliant, brilliant I tell you! Because it isn’t an experience for most men to have their opinion not only not matter, but be entirely negated solely for the fact that they are men. It is unsettling and disturbing and bravo for doing that for the sake of illuminating our behaviour.
Unfortunately this isn’t satire (unless it is? Tell me radfems, my male mind is uncomprehending) and the lines of reasoning expressed in this thread lead to dark places. We should know, men already went there. Which leads me to state, have you women learned nothing from our mistakes? You want to repeat them because why? It’ll be different this time? Now that is insanity, doing the same action over again and expecting different results.
Freedom and privilege for women I say yea, conspiring to off the male half of the human species and looking on us like we are subhumans, I say nay.
I get it, they've been oppressed since the dawn of time. And yes their anger is a righteous one. But for all their claims of superiority and puppies and kittens, women must realize that taking the same road that men previously took doesn't give them the moral high ground, in fact last I checked, talking wholesale gendercide doesn't make you a good human being.
So to reiterate, not MRA (not insecure about my loss of privilege), although I tended to get alittle punchy with the commentary the longer this went on. I can only tolerate so much stupidity.
The entire thread is here:
http://pastebin.com/nwxBe2Ek
My response to the snippets in italics. Aaaand Gooo!
I think it’s important to begin a post like this by providing some context. You can’t just ask, “Are men aware of their condition?” and then simply proceed to discuss said condition, especially when men are reading. You need to offer some background so that people know where you’re coming from; so the post can’t be distorted; so nobody can play ignorant.
How about a list of atrocities then? Goes on to list rhetorical atrocities
So I’m going to go ahead here and concede, yes, those were men. I’m not going to make the argument that women get involved in these activities as well because statistical evidence says for the most part this is a male issue. We do live in a patriarchy after all. But here is where I take some issue, how did the patriarchy get established? As natives said to the white man after gazing upon his cities “Where are your women?” And to be clear they didn’t mean “your” as ownership or dominance but as in equals in the decision making process of how a society should operate. We are now all, ALL, trapped in this cultural meme. As a man I am just as helpless as a woman to change the direction. By myself anyway. I can’t do it alone, so who among the rad feminists are going to stand with me as I would stand with them? Sorry if my having a penis gets in the way of that.
For those readers who may not know, men systematically massacred over nine million women over the course of many centuries, and then pretended it didn’t happen. So clearly, we’re not talking about institutionalized misogyny here. This is not “sexism“, or “woman-hating”. What men have done, and continue to do to women is, I believe, the inevitable result of some pathology in their genetic make-up. The violence they commit is inevitable. They were born that way, and were born to do it. This we must accept.
I’ve never killed a woman. Nor have I abused a woman. Nor to the best of my knowledge has any of my male friends (for if they did they would be my friend no longer). I don’t see the inevitability of this. What I see is that environment coupled with circumstance leads some down what you see is an inevitable path, but obviously does not apply to all persons of a specific gender.
The Y chromosome is inferior to the X. It contains 78 working genes, compared to approximately 1,500 working genes on the X chromosome. As the Y passes from father to son, mutations accumulate slowly over the generations. Scientists are researching the decline of the Y with great frenzy at the moment.
What this means is that with each generation, males are becoming genetically more inferior to females.
That is quite the claim, that females are genetically superior on the basis of having more genes. I guess that would make the tomato superior to females? And rice, and worms...I could go on.
“Once upon a time, the Y sex chromosome looked much the same as the X sex chromosome. Both were X shaped, and matched up neatly. Like our other pairs of chromosomes, the two sex chromosomes exchanged genes as necessary to repair DNA and avoid harmful mutations.
Then something went badly wrong. Around 166 million years ago, a huge chunk of the Y chromosome in one of our mammalian ancestors was turned upside down and reinserted. The change was so extreme that the Y chromosome no longer matched the X, and it became impossible for the two to swap genes. The Y chromosome began collecting mutations and losing genes, ultimately taking on its characteristic Y shape as a result.
“In humans, it now carries a mere 19 of the 800 genes it originally shared with the X. Given that rate of loss, some geneticists have predicted that the chromosome will lose its final gene in 4.6 million years.” (New Scientist)
Men are loathe to admit it. Despite the evidence staring them in the face, they are apparently in denial.
Not really, if it happens it happens, it doesn’t make me any less of a person that in 4.6 million years “men”, as I understand them, will not exist. Who is to say another event like the one that happened 166 million years ago won’t happen again? I think making an argument based on genetics opens a can of (genetically superior) worms, i.e. if the Y chromosome is a mutation that should be eliminated what about other types of known and commonly understood genetic damage, like trisomy 21? Are you willing to go down that road? That is not a path I wish to travel.
So here is a question: if the sex-determinate gene on the Y chromosome jumps to an X and human males are left with a full complement of XX chromosomes, what would then be your excuse?
Female longevity is not an accident. The Y chromosome is faulty, whereas the X is full of life-preserving properties. Take color blindness . This genetic fault manifests only in males, because females have their second X as a back up (kind of like having a second kidney in case one fails). Almost all intersex babies are male but doctors pretend they’re female. The only intersex people who are female are those with Turner syndrome. Wiki says “Turner syndrome only affects females” but this is not exactly true. Turner syndrome babies are born without an X. Males who would have been born with Turner syndrome are probably miscarried early on. They die because there are no genes in the Y to preserve life. Whereas if a foetus is female, they have their second X as a back up, and are therefore born alive. So it is not a “female” condition per se. What actually happens is that only females survive.
I would concede that males by nature are the more disposable gender, but let’s be realistic about the longevity, men take more risks, we are harder on our bodies then women. We can’t bear children, our biological investment in the act of procreation is minimal. We are built to be active and more aggressive. A good society would design ways to channel these biological imperatives, but what a patriarchy does is hands the keys of the kingdom to the more impulsive of the genders.
Before you read it, let’s put the idea of “thoughtcrime” into context. Men are right now torturing women, and are proud of it...By contrast, what you are about to read is words. Nothing but words. Do not allow patriarchal propaganda convince you that words on a page, and torture, are one and the same.
Surely let us not equate words to actions, but since when is the disapproval of the act of contemplating genocide “patriarchal propaganda”?
I would like to express how the knowledge of men being innately violent + a mutation has affected me in my everyday life. I knew that male violence was related to male biology for a year 1/2 maybe? (in that only men could be violent in that way and create a patriarchy) but when I read Sonia Johnson’s book where she explained how men were a mutation, this changed my sentiment to men. At first I was really happy to find this out because it made complete sense, in many ways (too long to explain though). It comforted me in ignoring men and acting as if only women existed, and focusing on creating safe women-only spaces. But something I never felt before, I started to feel sorrow for their state. It annoys me because I have never felt sorry for men before, only contempt, or ignorance at best. I look at them and I imagine what it would be like, knowing somewhere, deep down, that you are flawed, a mistake, and that your are dead, or not fully human, or inherently destructive, and if I knew that, I would probably kill myself. To imagine feeling this made me feel sorry. Do they know it? Or do they not fully understand it? All these efforts in making women believe we are aliens, non-human, naturally and internally flawed, walking defects => this is them projecting on us. They must know on some level they are flawed, but do they experience emotional pain from it? Do they feel emotions at all, or do they just pretend to? To which extent? Are they aware of their condition somehow?
The thing is, if I treat them as mutants, what’s stopping us from killing them? Empathy? Fear? Fear of hurting ourselves, or that it will destroy our soul to do so, because being violent to someone means cutting yourself from emotions, therefore being more dead inside? Would it be bad to kill them all? To what degree does violence affect them or not? Can they only be affected by violence, and nothing else? Do they only understand violence? How does this affect our actions and decisions to take power away from them?
Why don’t you just ask a man? I suppose I don’t need to point out the parallels of what this poster is saying and what white culture said of the indigenous people’s they encountered. We all know where this reasoning leads...to genocide. I get the sense that some of the female posters on here have had bad experiences with the men in their lives. I sympathize. However to deal with your issues with certain individuals by projecting your solutions to encompass an entire gender, how does this make you any different than the men who used to (or still do) dominate you? By saying that the problem is men, and the defect is rooted in their genetic make-up essentially relieves not only the woman of how to work effectively with men to change society (by offering up a can’t-fix-em-then-kill-them-all scenario) but it also relieves the men, specifically your oppressors, of any need to change themselves, after all what can they do, it’s genetic. This is self-defeating. Even if you banded together and seized the moment to wipe out all men, at what cost to yourselves? Where goes your moral highground? How do you, after making that decision, differentiate yourselves from the flawed men you loathe?
Also, I just realised yesterday that no man is part of me, and that litterally, I don’t have a dad, no woman has! I just understood the meaning of having the genes from my mother and my paternal grandmother. Only women are my people. Men do not exist within me and I have no father. My father is not my father but he is no-one. This may sound odd but it just struck me. And at the same time, it made me feel sorry for him. And the story Sonia tells in her book sisterwitch really resonated in me, when she explains that women felt sorry for those feeble beings and tried to feed them. Obviously I would never do that but it’s just strange to feel this. This is not a political statement, just to share the effect the knowledge has on me and I’m still processing the conclusions to be made from it in everyday life interactions with men. Perhaps it’s trauma bonding. Or over developed empathy towards dominants. How has this knowledge changed your sentiments towards men, or way of interacting with them, if at all? Other than female separatism, are there some conclusions you have made in your lives based on this knowledge?
This is just dumb. Biologically speaking we are the same species. I don’t have to point out that in the act of procreation that you inherited an X from your father who inherited it from his mother. That X is instrumental in forming who he is and in turn forming who you are. So in essence you acknowledge a everyman is part woman, but all badness and icky, so either the X is not as mighty as you think it is or there is more to the story.
What you were saying about no woman having a dad, I’ve been going there with my own thoughts recently as well, stemming from my experiences with my own father, and the way that my husband is with my children. They’re not his kids. They don’t have a father. He might regard them as a appendages: get a wife, get a house, get some kids, and in that sense they’re his and belong to him, but other than that, he’s just an alien in the home. He helps out a lot with the kids, which I used to appreciate, but now I realise it’s another form of dominance, of trying to take over in the home and piss all over the place, leaving his mark. I’ve also realised that my 6 year old daughter humours him. How much mental energy is this taking out of her?? She certainly does not humour me, LOL! It’s no holds barred when it comes to telling me exactly what she thinks of me at any particular given moment.
This strikes me as certainly ungrateful and a certain measure of damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don’t. He helps out, you call it dominance and resent him for it. If he didn’t help out you would accuse him of neglecting his duties and accuse him of another form of dominance. Can’t win. Perhaps maybe if he ceased to breathe that would work for you? Too bad you didn’t figure this out before you got married, you could have saved both yourself and your soon to be ex-husband much grief. LOL, indeed.
To answer your question about whether men experience emotional pain. I have a lot of brothers, have had various relationships with men and I’ve concluded that when they’re children they feel pain and are as close to female (i.e human) they’re ever going to be. But once they hit puberty they no longer feel emotions. They know that women do and “other” us for it. My husband was putting on one big fat act while we were “courting” before marriage. This has blown me away. If I wasn’t in such a vulnerable situation (in a foreign country with kids) he would have had to carry on with the act throughout our relationship, as almost all men do. But because he didn’t have to bother he practically dropped the act as soon as the ring was on my finger.
Has it ever occurred to you this is a reflection of culture? That boys are not allowed to cry or show emotion. From an early age we are told to “man up”, “grow a pair”, “quite being a wimp” and that “crying is for sissies”. There is no real place in our culture for the sensitive man. Even women will go out of their way to poke fun at the stereotype.
Yes it’s interesting that you talk about your brothers because the other day I made the same comment to myself, as I was at my grandmother’s house looking at my family photos and when they were 3, 4 years old they actually looked human, had human expressions, you can see it in their eyes. But now, They’re lost, they lost capacity to emphathise. Puberty *is* the turning point.
The mystical turning point where boys turn into monsters (men)? Again I point to culture. We are not given the tools to deal with our emotions, it makes us fragile emotionally. Nor are we indulged to express our emotions unless it conforms with the ideal male stereotype, brooding, anger, rage, hate, stoicism.
If we are not taught and encouraged how to appropriately express ourselves are we to be suprised when we express ourselves in wholey inappropriate ways? Whose fault is that? Certainly not something you can blame on a chromosome. In that kind of cultural milieu, how would you expect men to behave?
However, I do very much believe that men experience one particular emotion very strongly— self-pity. I concur with the author of the following (taken from no pomo tumblr, author uknown)
“Oh, they have toes, but the only feeling men have I’ve witnessed is self-pity. They have a lot of instincts like territoriality, protect your turf or woman, whatever they think they own– but I don’t call ball ingredients like testosterone, feelings or emotions. So isn’t it curious that you can’t even get most lesbians to say they’re man-haters? Instead they say, “Oh I don’t really hate men, now that I’m a lesbian, I never have to be around any. They just don’t affect my life anymore.’ This is what I call the lesbian false consciousness. When don’t we have to be around men? Don’t we ever walk the streets, buy groceries, deal with some patriarchal bureaurcracy, ride subways, trains or drive cars, see police, repairmen, don’t men live in our buildings in the cities or live around you in the country? If you work, aren’t there men around supervising you? If you’re in school, don’t you have any men teachers or have to sit with men in class? If you go to a hospital, aren’t there any men doctors or patients around? The lesbian answer is, “Oh, those; well I never pay any attention to them.” Take a good look next time you’re in what they call public which means man’s world; look at those men you don’t know and dig on how much attention your body and mind pay to trying avoid paying any attention to pigs, who are paying a lot of attention to you making sounds to scare you, stepping in your way or not moving so you have to walk around them or yield to their right of way…. Even the most down and out bum in New York has a whole repertoire of intimidation numbers to pull on women. No matter how far down you go in the prick hierarchy, every prick knows how to corner a woman, make her feel unsafe. And they all do it every day, even your good daddies and your shy brothers who never told you what they do to the women they don’t know.”
Ah yes the expert testimony of the unknown author. Let’s design society around those musings.
Again I would point out the parallels of this dehumanization to several other famous dehumanizations in history. So when this poster says “prick hierarchy” this is an all encompassing label that all men, everyday go out of their way to make women feel unsafe. Anyone can see that this is a absolute statement that has no bearing on reality. Reminds me of an issue my daughter has with dogs. She is terrified of them (from a intimidating encounter with a dog she encountered when she was a toddler), she opens the door when she sees her neighbour come home, unbeknownst to her the neighbour has a big dog with her. The dog gets startled when the door opens and barks, my daughter gets scared and runs back inside. The neighbour feels bad and knocks on the door and tries to tell my daughter that the dog is a nice dog and was just startled is all and would she like to try again. My daughter explains the origin of her fear and the neighbour replies that there are indeed some bad dogs out there, but most dogs are good and can be good given the chance. I thought that was a fitting metaphor to this discussion. There are some bad men out there, but most men are good or can be good if given the right environment and upbringing. The logic that is being put forward in these posts are men=bad, even if they act good they are probably hiding badness, thus because of the few encounters you’ve had with men that are bad, it is best to proceed with caution and treat all men the same way you’d treat bad men. The terminating clause of this logic being just that, terminating an entire gender.
And while we’re on the subject of men’s primary emotion being self-pity, and not much else, I’d like to quote a woman from a forum called SAAFE, which is where prostituted women gather to support each other and share techniques on how best to survive. I find it interesting to read their comments because these women know men better than any other group of women on earth.
This is interesting the poster drawing from the experience of a prostitute who has experienced nothing of men but those that view her as an object or a commodity comes to the conclusion that all men, by and large, experience no other emotion that self-pity. I would point out that the men who generally frequent the services of prostitutes are not men who could sustain a relationship of any substance, hint: these men are not good people. I would suggest expanding your sample size to include men that didn’t frequent prostitutes? Just a suggestion.
And if anyone knows about how men tick, it’s prostituted women. They need to, or they wouldn’t survive.
Yes prostituted women understand ALL men, even those multitudes that would never entertain the thought of engaging in paid-for intercourse /sarc. I would say that prostitutes are experts in narcissists, sociopaths, and the dregs of society. Which makes them experts on bad men, not all men.
And BAM, there you have it. A prostituted woman reaches exactly the same conclusion as a lesbian separatist. That tells us something.
That people that are low on the rungs of society can be not so savoury?
To conclude, I believe men do have an inkling of their condition. The world they have created is a living manifestation of this knowledge.Nature is on the side of females. We’re nature’s best, which is probably another reason why men hate us so much, and patriarchy promulgates lies about it, and constantly reverses the truth. The most absurd concept of all is the idea that there is a male God in the sky, who is the source of all life, who created Adam in his own image as the original prototype, with Eve as an add-on. Nature knows this is a reversal. It is males who are the add-ons to the species. They protest too much. They know, they know, they know.
Wow. Arrogance in line with anthropocentrism. Femopocentrism? It is repugnant to hear a man say “Men are superior to women”, it is equally repugnant to hear the other side of that statement.
WordWoman says:
Fascinating perspective, CBL! Really fascinating! I just got the Sonia Johnson books and am eager to read them. Thanks for your discussion of them.
Along with the destructon of the environment there has been a decrease in sperm count in males.The sperm is likely to die off in response to environmental degradation long before the Y goes. Either way, men appear to be in decline.
How likely is that to happen before irreversible destruction to the planet?
How do women expect to continue to procreate with a sudden degradation of sperm or men? Could it be that you propose to do the same thing that you are accusing geneticist of in that they are trying to find a way to preserve the Y, you will use science to try to find a way to clone yourselves?
cherryblossomlife says:
Yes, I think I read somewhere that pesticides or plastics or something are hurrying the mutation process along. It’s come a full circle. They’ve destroyed the planet and now nature is getting its own back.
Hello, you were along for the ride as I recall. Great way to abdicate your responsibility for the planet by putting all the blame squarely on male shoulders. What are you doing to put a stop to this? Are you protesting corporations? Do you speak about the invisibility of top-down hierarchical violence that is not couched in terms of the male gender perpetuated on the female gender? I guarantee that if women gathered together in great numbers pushing their babies along in prams to protest corporation like goldman sachs and Monsanto, the world would take notice. And if the state was stupid enough to pepper spray babies and mothers then they would overnight have to deal with a legion of very pissed-off fathers, husbands, and brothers. But would you rather play the passive victim, hiding out in your forums, conspiring as to how to bring down the male menance. You want the patriarchy gone, then learn to work with those that would help you accomplish that.
witchwind says:
Excellent! You’re right, if they didn’t know, they wouldn’t be so violently trying hard to “be on top” and to brainwash us into believing the contrary.
thinking of what I said, the problem of taking violence in our own hands is that again, it focuses our energy on men in negative ways, it generates negativity in us – I suspect it would, but I can’t be certain. How do women who killed their batterers feel about it? Was it completely liberating or did it reinforce patterns of violence in themselves, creating addictive cycles of violence?
At least it seems to go against positive building and focusing on ourselves and on creating our own reality, rather than being outward centred and doing according to men’s presence. Would it locate, yet again, power outside of ourselves? Valerie Solanas said that all men should do us and themselves a favour, to kill themselves now. That it would be the best service they could give to the world, free the world from their presence. Obviously this seems the easiest option, but I don’t think it’s likely to happen. They are very intent on continuing to pollute us and the world with their presence.
If we applied the logic of Sonia Johnson, where there is no past nor future, all we would need to do is feel and act as if men already *were* dead, inexistant and extinct, something of a distant memory. I wonder what effect this would have!
Why don’t you read some history and consider how dimly the notion of genocide is looked upon. It is, by all definitions, the worst crime that can be perpetuated by our species. Think that won’t leave a black mark? Think again.
FCM says:
i first considered the defective Y chromosome when i read it in dalys work, and then again in sonia johnsons sisterwitch conspiracy. it was almost incomprehensible to me, and in fact if i hadnt seen daly address it, i never wouldve accepted it from the less-credentialled johnson and this is intentional isnt it? how many ph.ds does a woman have to have, so that citing known facts is accepted and acceptable? ffs, men can look you right in the eye and tell you up is down and it takes a very confident woman to recognize within the privacy of her own mind that hes wrong, let alone say it out loud. we just shut down from the oppressiveness of the constant mindfucking reversals. thats what we have coming FROM THEM, and yet *we* are not allowed to SPEAK about the truth, or ask legitimate questions about mens worth at all. and thats what it comes down to isnt it? MENS WORTH. and how they dont really have any — they really are so much genetic garbage. they feel sorry for themselves and we feel sorry for them — this is the sum and substance of our relationship. it is unilateral pity towards the pathetic, defective male.
saying it out loud feels good and right. :)
So says Hitler. I am coming to understand why the term “feminazi” exists. I wonder how you expect to have a rational conversation about this, how you expect to be “free” and respected if you think that the other side of this equation (who incidentally still holds most of the privilege you wish to have or at least have denied to men) is not even human, worthy of basic decency. I’ve met some pretty awful people in my time, a good chunk of them men, but this is up there.
cherryblossomlife says:
Ha! Yes, even prostitutes feel sorry for their clients. Everybody feels sorry for men, including men themselves.. And when you look at the science, you can see this pity is not misplaced. I’d feel sorry for myself if I was born male.
I don’t feel sorry for myself. I am quite comfortable in my own skin. I worry about my kids. I want to encourage a strong confident daughter who is not afraid to stand up for herself and a son who will respect women and stand by them when needed.
FCM says:
even the sheer physical redundancy of males is never addressed in the mainstream, even though that is obvious. we have only ever needed a few of them for reproductive purposes. their redundancy in terms of numbers, as well as the fact that they embody genetic garbage, and are at a critical mass of pure evil, is an unholy trifecta. these issues are generally not discussed even individually, and certainly not together (as in, 1+1+1=3 or 0+0+0=0 for that matter — haha) and we DEFINTELY arent allowed to even THINK about a possible solution for what is a very obvious and urgent problem.
And what is your FINAL solution? Sheesh!
FCM says:
god i wish fathers didnt exist at all. i cannot wait til some of you read sisterwitch. :)
I wish thoughts like this didn’t exist, but we don’t always get what we wish for.
DavinaSquirrel says:
I did a ‘default human is female’ post over a year ago, with pictures, so you can see the really pathetic Y. It’s another of patriarchy’s great reversals – that males insist they are the default human, when the reality is that females are the default human.
I’m not sure where you’d come up with that “males insist they are the default human”. Biology is pretty clear, we all start out looking like females, sexual differentiation not occurring till later in the pregnancy. However, for any one gender to insist that they are the default gender seems pretty silly on the face of it. What if we all defaulted to one gender or the other? We’d end pretty quickly as a species. Evolutionary biology has one gender bearing the children and the other contributing his genetic material. Don’t blame men for that arrangement, blame evolution.
cherryblossomlife says:
Thank you for that Weirdward! Especially the explanation of how post-modernism was feminism distorted. God, can’t they think of a SINGLE idea themselves?? Jesus Christ!
Do I even have to go there? No man ever had an idea that didn’t come from a woman? This is a peculiar brand of plagarism. Congrats, you just plagarised at least 50% of recorded human history.
karmarad says:
Thanks Cherry for your courage and insights!It is so difficult to try to think straight from within this masculinist global society.
When I consider the state of the land, sea, women, animals, and plants, and the constant and increasingly potent attacks on them, what I see is that a deformed masculine spirit has seized control of the earth and it has, freed of any controls, run rampant. By suppressing the female side of themselves and humanity as successfully as they have, the masculine spirit has – how to say this – become extreme, exaggerated, monstrous, lost any ability to abate the more destructive aspects of masculinity. I often speculate about what women would be like if we were raised in freedom.
I’d add to that the question of what the world would be like if men were raised in balance and with destructive instincts controlled by a non-masculinist society. In a way I’m talking about both an essentialist view of human males as having all this destructive potential readily available within them, coupled with a social-constructionist view that the global society they have built increasingly encourages them to go mad with it. The madness is, in this way of thinking, getting progressively more destructive in its manifestations because it is unchecked.
I’m currently reading Lierre Keith’s analysis, locating this loss of balance and suppression of the feminine and pathological exaggeration of the masculine in the rise of agriculture. Of course many other feminists have discussed this theory. The geneticist Adam Sykes ( in “Adam’s Curse”) starts from the notion that the Y chromosome at that point had the opportunity to obtain complete power over humanity’s course: “Driven on and on by the crazed ambition of the Y-chromosome to multiply without limit, wars began to enable men to annex adjacent lands and enslave their women. Nothing must stand in the way of the Y-chromosome. Wars, slavery, empires – all ultimately coalesce on that one mad pursuit…The mad scramble, fuelled by the most basic of unseen genetic impulses, seriously endangers the survival of the species – and the planet. In ten thousand years we have changed from an intelligent and resourceful animal…into a teeming species very rapidly destroying our beautiful planet.” I don’t agree with Sykes on many basic points, because he still writes with blinders, but I’ll take his moments of clarity gladly.
Anyway, destruction caused by male domination has obviously become runaway. Women have enough to do with the process of getting free of their enslavement. But we aren’t going to have time to do this in any kind of orderly fashion – men aren’t going to stop the runaway and we have to address this concurrently with recovering our power. I even ask myself if the women’s liberation movement is directed by our own XX genes, sensing the impending destruction and impelling us to take action at this precise time of escalating threats to the earth. In any case, if male domination causes massive destruction, I don’t really think our planet will be destroyed. She can weather men pocking her with holes, poisoning her atmosphere, ruining her ecologies, killing her water – and come back in a few million years. She’ll be okay, but it’s a damn shame that this is the most optimistic thing I can say about the future, that a complete wipeout won’t destroy her. Too bad only trilobytes will be left to start over, or whatever non-human species make it through.
This was probably the most coherent comment on the blog, suggesting that there is a balance issue between the feminine and masculine.
cherryblossomlife says:
Thanks Karmarad, fascinating comment, as always.
Probably didn’t understand the full ramifications of the comment which essentially says that feminine and masculine should be in balance, which doesn’t support treating men like animals and/or eliminating them. It calls for changing the environment in which men grow up to channel and temper those genetic predispositions.
FCM says:
women have been taking birth control pills for decades for example, when its perfectly “natural” for semen exposure to cause pregnancy. seems like altering biology (or “nature” if you will) is perfectly acceptable when its WOMENS biology thats being fucked with, and where the intent and effect is to support male power at womens expense.
If you can come up with something better than a condom for men, then fill your boots. No one is stopping you.
cherryblossomlife says:
Yes, I think so citizenaqueau. Nature is on women’s side, at least. Maybe that’s why men love cutting down rainforests and shit.
I would say that men and women love money, they love the nice things it buys them and they have been inculcated by an economic system that says that the nature of the goods of nature is “free”. So while I’ll concede that most of this economic garbage was thought up by men, as was the ideology of capitalism, and most of religion...where are the feminist thinkers on any of these subjects? Feminist economists? Feminist theologians? I recognize the fallacy of our our cultural institutions, but I don’t see much radical feminist analysis of these institutions. What would it amount to? Man=bad, woman=good. End of story.
cherryblossomlife says:
Honestly, go and google “BDSM porn” then come back here and say, “Well, some men are nice”. It doesn’t fly. And to be honest, it doesn’t MATTER, because those few nice men aren’t WORTH the millions and billions of women and children who have been hurt, tortured and killed by men since patriarchy began.
So I gotta ask, do all men look at BDSM porn? Poster seems to suggest that we do? Again we are ascribing the attributes of a subset of the male population to the entire male population.
cherryblossomlife says:
Remember the political system was INVENTED by men. WOmen had nothing to do with it. Yes, it’s a complex system, but patriarchy is a political system indeed, which employs all the same oppressive tactics as any other authoritarian regime (terrorizing and torturing the oppressed, using propaganda in the form of pornography, the stifling of women’s speech, discriminating in the job market etc etc). The question you have to ask is:
“WHY do men create authoritarian regimes?” “WHY do they violently oppress women (and in some cases men of other ethnic or racial groups)?” “Why do they kill and hurt women and children so frequently?”
Women haven’t a jot of political or economic power.
You forgot the economic system, religious system, cultural system. And you also forgot in the heat of your blaming that although it was invented by men it was(and is) SUPPORTED by women. You promptly erect the defence that “women haven’t a jot of political or economic power”. You forget that in an age when women are elected and appointed to the highest offices in state and corporate power that you are running potentially the most subversive and successful espionage strategy in the history of the universe; you are raising our children. You have the ability, under our noses and enmasse, to turn society on its ear. You are our children’s first consistent conctact with an adult, what you teach establishes our children’s intellectual and emotional foundation. So please, spare me the “poor me” routine.
cherryblossomlife says:
And exactly WHO is conditioning men to be violent? Don’t you think maybe pornography, computer games and the mass media (ALL invented by men) are a form of political control, a form of political propaganda, encouraging violence against women?
Poor parenting? You have no control over what goes on in your home? What media your children consume? Yeah, sounds like poor parenting. I live in this world, the world of the patriarchy, that I can’t control. I can, however, make sure my children know the difference between the world they are growing up in and the world that is possible.
FCM says:
NO men are against violence against women. none of them. it physically hurts me to read such wishful thinking about boys and men, and such lies about what men are capable of, and what they allegedly believe, AGAINST ALL EVIDENCE. stop hurting me! thanks!
Wow. Another absolute statement that does not reflect reality. Let me check, did I engage in any violence against women today...well I guess unless you count disagreeing with radfems as “violence” I would say no. But please educate me in the arcane ways that I am unwittingly promoting violence against women.
karmarad says:
Just want to stress something brought up by fcm…from the evidence to date, men, with fourteen times as much testosterone as women, tend strongly toward aggression, hierarchy, and dominance. Yes, making use of these instincts/predispositions, they have wrested control of human society. The result is urgent danger to our planet.
BUT there is no such thing as biological determinism.
A mature society can contain these instincts (I mean a society that does not valorize, hierarchy, domination, and aggression). They can be controlled and neutralized. There are many methods for containing male violence. Men themselves are inventing new methods for doing so as we speak. Many men are ashamed of their instincts and would like to have methods to control the destructiveness.
Hormonal adjustments are important to look into. I look at trans people taking hormones, women coerced into taking hormones, birth control pills, Lance Armstrong, Alex Rodriguez and all the other sports figures trying to hypermasculinize by using hormones. I look at the ongoing efforts to control sex predators using chemical or surgical castration, especially men who have castrated themselves because they know they are dangerous. I see how modern medicine is using hormones to treat breast and prostate cancer. Treating women for “menopausal” symptoms of course is just filling them up with hormones to keep them looking younger and more available.
One case haunts me. It was an Army doctor during and after the Civil War in the US. He became a rapist and was put into a mental institution. A very intelligent individual, he analyzed his situation and one day castrated himself. The relief he felt was enormous.
There are many twists and turns in history. There are many intelligent men as well as the huge number of women pointing out the obvious here. I look at Derrick Jensen (Deep Green Resistance), for instance, who wants to save the earth and is right on the edge of understanding that it is men who must be contained first and foremost.
I do think there is hope. Brute force is irrelevant to power today. Women are superb at the verbal swordplay of law and medicine and now have their entrees. I figure that all we have to do is continue to encourage birth control, literacy, access to the Net, and abortion if needed. Other feminists can help me here, explaining what exactly we need.
And one other thing. It is crucial to insist that we are agents. We are subjects, not objects, and won’t be treated as objects in the media, in philosophy, in politics, or in any other way, any more. To be human is to be a subject. Let’s call it out each time men try to pretend we aren’t subjects, agents, just like them. It’s a good place to start.
And good god, they’re still trying to prostitute us. They are still jacking off to pictures they have stolen from us. They think paying poor women (made poor by their system) a pittance somehow makes it right to perform virtual rape. They think their sex drives are the most important things going on. They feel entitled to degrade us. Let’s be honest, and I have talked to several men candidly about this: the necessity is to pretend we are not human. We’re like nice dogs to them in pornography and prostitution. Good doggie! (growl/attack/eat) Dogs like us are close to our wolf origins, remember! or even more close to human, let me say these words: shame, shame on you, you are disgusting to do this to other humans, and the women are human, and you are sickening.
We have always borne the responsibility, and never received the credit for it. Let’s face it. We are the stable, grounded, child-raising, feeding, life-affirming sex, and men with their loud voices, their boundary violating, their pecking orders, have fucked our society up royally. Even in my lifetime I have seen a revolution. Cultural change won’t take long considering that there are three and half billion of us who are tired of not being quite human. That we are not killers, exploders, destroyers, has held us back since these methods are common in male arsenals but not in ours. These days these methods are irrelevant. Men are irrelevant. actually. If they want to become relevant again, they will have to learn self-fucking-discipline.
Other than the second last paragraph karmarad once again hit the nail on the head. Patriarchy needs boundaries. I think radfems miss the point that the patriarchy makes demands on both genders, the feminine to be invisible and submissive and the masculine to be competitive and domineering. Any individual (regardless of gender) that does not play the role gets singled out and squashed. I do not want to say that there is a direct comparision between the roles we play, there is not, but I would point out that men would do better not being under a patriarchy. It is dog eat dog out here, and although you are not predisposed to bear any sympathy for the male gender, you could consider the collapse of the patriarchy a selling point. Men establish worth by who/what we conquer, over the thousands of years this has morphed into how much money do we make and how much influence do we have in social circles. Could it be that it would be a burden we’d readily give up if we could establish our worth simply by being who we are and not what we can offer?
cherryblossomlife says:
I was interested to notice that a man has liked this post, and his gravatar is interesting. It reads “SUpport Radical Feminism”. Now, any woman who supports radical feminism IS a radfem, whereas any man who understands radical feminism knows that, by default, he cannot be a radfem. Compare it to the Hugo Schwyzers of this world, self-proclaimed feminist men who believe they’re leading women to freedom… What an imbecile. So feminist men, egalitarian men, non-capitalist men, animal rights men, male ecologists and the like can fuck off… But if a man wants to “Support Radical Feminism”, then I feel very heartened by that… UNLESS he, and his ilk goes and does what men have always done, which is take over the movement and distort it.
I am emphatically not radfem, in fact most of you who identify themselves as radfem on this thread are repugnant in your understanding of the ideology. I think that giving women more power and education can alleviate problems like overpopulation, violence, environmental destruction, but the women in power have to reject the patriarchy and not supplant themselves just so they can hold on to a paycheque/position. They have to blaze their way to power on the platform on which they stand.
cherryblossomlife says:
Peaceful Antithesist, I think yours was the lengthiest comment I’ve ever had here on cherryblossomlife. Well DONE.
This was after a series of censored male comments edited by the admin to say “Hai, I’m an MRA!” and this comment should read:
Peaceful Antithesist, I think yours was the lengthiest comment I’ve ever had censored here on cherryblossomlife. Well DONE.
Women have been silenced, their opinions ignored for a long time. I get that. Women only spaces, that too I understand. You can have private forums in which the public cannot read unless they are logged in that way you can weed out the MRA’s. But to have a public post and willfully discriminate and purposefully demonstrate you are discriminating, why bother? It is like you give the oppressed a little power (in this case admin power) of the oppressor and watch them go wild with the new round of oppressing. Take that you dirty worthless men, I SILENCE YOU! HOW DO YOU LIKE THEM APPLES! Sheesh!
For the record, if any rad fems post a comment to this article I’m not going to act like a child and post “Hai, I’m a RadFem.” I will allow it, because as a privileged male, I can share my space without fear.
cherryblossomlife says:
Why do MRAs come here? We’re talking about how much men hate women. What are they trying to prove? Are they trying to convince us they DON’T hate women..? Coz if that’s the case their tactics are crap, and they’re not very convincing. In fact, all they’re doing is proving us right. And if we’re right, and they DO, in fact, hate women… then why are they complaining about this post at all?
Fucking oppressors.
Well to be fair, it is hard to convince anyone of anything if:
You don’t value their opinion.
You don’t regard them as human.
You don’t let them speak.
You are not open to listening.
But yeah MRA’s pretty much hate women. Empowerment of women, to them, represents a diminishment of their power/status/privilege. You see this pattern time and time again in other oppressor/oppressed type of relationships (i.e. poor whites looking down on negroes although they were both oppressed by rich whites). To be MRA is to have an insecurity problem, they’ve been handed a rotten bit of luck in life, and since it is not permissible to own slaves anymore the last bastion of discrimination left is gender. To feel better about themselves they demonize the perceived weaker group, in this case women. If they are not the absolute last on the totem pole then they can accept their lot in life.
In Conlusion:
If this post was some sort of satire where the women posting were treating men exactly the way men where treating women for thousands of years (i.e. that they are not people and their opinion is irrelevant) then it is brilliant, brilliant I tell you! Because it isn’t an experience for most men to have their opinion not only not matter, but be entirely negated solely for the fact that they are men. It is unsettling and disturbing and bravo for doing that for the sake of illuminating our behaviour.
Unfortunately this isn’t satire (unless it is? Tell me radfems, my male mind is uncomprehending) and the lines of reasoning expressed in this thread lead to dark places. We should know, men already went there. Which leads me to state, have you women learned nothing from our mistakes? You want to repeat them because why? It’ll be different this time? Now that is insanity, doing the same action over again and expecting different results.
